What would you rather have happen?

[Garibaldi!]

Don't want to back into the Prem. It's boring. And it smells.

Why can't we be allowed to win promotion, but nominate a sub for actual entry into the Prem (Doncaster Rovers would be my choice), then we can stay in the 4th largest league in the world, with more games and more entertaining footy, with none of the usual prima donna prem nonsense.

Perfect plan or what?

Only if we get to keep the PL money too.

Oh yeah, percentage split.

[Royal_Belly]

Don't want to back into the Prem. It's boring. And it smells.

Why can't we be allowed to win promotion, but nominate a sub for actual entry into the Prem (Doncaster Rovers would be my choice), then we can stay in the 4th largest league in the world, with more games and more entertaining footy, with none of the usual prima donna prem nonsense.

Perfect plan or what?

I agree that the Prem was boring in the second season we were there, however I think that we need to be promoted this season as I am worried what has happend to the likes of Charlton & Leeds could happen to us! Mass exodus of players, staff and fans!

[Sun Tzu]

Don't want to back into the Prem. It's boring. And it smells.

Why can't we be allowed to win promotion, but nominate a sub for actual entry into the Prem (Doncaster Rovers would be my choice), then we can stay in the 4th largest league in the world, with more games and more entertaining footy, with none of the usual prima donna prem nonsense.

Perfect plan or what?

I agree that the Prem was boring in the second season we were there, however I think that we need to be promoted this season as I am worried what has happend to the likes of Charlton & Leeds could happen to us! Mass exodus of players, staff and fans!

If we lose the top players we'll have a whole squad of good youngsters to bring through all of whom have got a decent amount of experience out on loan over the last 2 years.

I actually think the prospect of not going up is in many ways more exciting than promotion.

[Royal_Belly]

Don't want to back into the Prem. It's boring. And it smells.

Why can't we be allowed to win promotion, but nominate a sub for actual entry into the Prem (Doncaster Rovers would be my choice), then we can stay in the 4th largest league in the world, with more games and more entertaining footy, with none of the usual prima donna prem nonsense.

Perfect plan or what?

I agree that the Prem was boring in the second season we were there, however I think that we need to be promoted this season as I am worried what has happend to the likes of Charlton & Leeds could happen to us! Mass exodus of players, staff and fans!

If we lose the top players we'll have a whole squad of good youngsters to bring through all of whom have got a decent amount of experience out on loan over the last 2 years.

I actually think the prospect of not going up is in many ways more exciting than promotion.

I am 100% for bringing in the youngsters, I have confidence in the players that I have seen so far this season - however, the majority who are out on loan are not playing for promotion chasing sides - are they going to be able to cope with the pressure and expectations that come with playing for us? Everybody expects Reading to be competing for promotion! Look how easy the fans have turned on the team this season!!

[Northern Git]

So you where there? And have read the Taylor report? Dont suppose you know any stewards that were working that day? And while you are on about 'experts' tell me how many of the 'experts' at the inquiry where there that fatefull afternoon?

I also dont suppose you ever experianced any of the two Merseyside clubs supporters 'gateing' games as they fondly called it in those days.

I happen not to subscribe to the view that all the Scouse supporters that afternoon were well behaved, sober, orderly, ticket holding citizens. This however does not take away my sympathy for those that died or lost loved ones that afternoon.

Surely that's obvious - but the same could be said of almost any set of supporters at alomost any big game. But has anyone (apart from The Sun) ever suggested that that caused the disaster?

Dirk if you read the report I think you will find that the report says that the initial surge was caused by a side gate being opened to eject a supporter from inside the ground. This gate was rushed by fans outside the ground and about twenty gained access. This, and the late arriving supporters pushing the crowd forward, caused the Police Commander on the day to make the fatefull decision to open the gate(s) to relive the pressure.

The gate(s) opened were normally exit gates so there was no way to know how many fans went into the ground, or if they had or had not tickets.

It was also presented to the court that supporters from both clubs, Liverpool and Forest, had been drinking, at the station, in the City centre & round Hillborough, since the pubs openned a 11.00 (four hours before the game kicked off). The report choose to discount this.

The estimates of those trying to get in from out side the ground as kick off approached were also far in excess of the numbers that should have been there if they all had tickets.

To say that there was no, ticketless, alcohol relaxed (note I did not say drunk) pushing fans outside the Leppings Lane stand as kick off approached I think is very, very far fetched.

Opening the gates caused the disaster, what caused those gates to be opened has a great deal to do with what followed.

I have to say that my own personnal experiances of both Merseyside clubs, Liverpool and Everton, in the seventies and eighties and one incident in 1992 does cloud my view on this.

[Dirk Gently]

So you where there? And have read the Taylor report? Dont suppose you know any stewards that were working that day? And while you are on about 'experts' tell me how many of the 'experts' at the inquiry where there that fatefull afternoon?

I also dont suppose you ever experianced any of the two Merseyside clubs supporters 'gateing' games as they fondly called it in those days.

I happen not to subscribe to the view that all the Scouse supporters that afternoon were well behaved, sober, orderly, ticket holding citizens. This however does not take away my sympathy for those that died or lost loved ones that afternoon.

Surely that's obvious - but the same could be said of almost any set of supporters at almost any big game. But has anyone (apart from The Sun) ever suggested that that caused the disaster?

Dirk if you read the report I think you will find that the report says that the initial surge was caused by a side gate being opened to eject a supporter from inside the ground. This gate was rushed by fans outside the ground and about twenty gained access. This, and the late arriving supporters pushing the crowd forward, caused the Police Commander on the day to make the fateful decision to open the gate(s) to relive the pressure.

The gate(s) opened were normally exit gates so there was no way to know how many fans went into the ground, or if they had or had not tickets.

It was also presented to the court that supporters from both clubs, Liverpool and Forest, had been drinking, at the station, in the City centre & round Hillborough, since the pubs openned a 11.00 (four hours before the game kicked off). The report choose to discount this.

The estimates of those trying to get in from out side the ground as kick off approached were also far in excess of the numbers that should have been there if they all had tickets.

To say that there was no, ticketless, alcohol relaxed (note I did not say drunk) pushing fans outside the Leppings Lane stand as kick off approached I think is very, very far fetched.

Opening the gates caused the disaster, what caused those gates to be opened has a great deal to do with what followed.

I have to say that my own personnal experiances of both Merseyside clubs, Liverpool and Everton, in the seventies and eighties and one incident in 1992 does cloud my view on this.

I think you're arguing with the wrong person here - I've never maintained that everyone there that day was sitting polishing their halo. The point that I was making was that at just about every big game there is a certain number of ticketless and/or drunk supporters - this game was no different and was completely unexceptional from that point of view. But if that was the prime cause we would have had several "Hillsboroughs" every season.

It's all down to the Police decision to alleviate a dangerous crush outside the stadium by allowing 5,000 supporters down a narrow tunnel into a fenced off area, which was already full, and without anyone or anything inside to direct some of those to side pens.

What caused the police to make those decisions - and what happened afterwards - are the big mysteries. And they're the questions that have never been properly answered - and certainly not in the Taylor Report (which I have read, BTW!).

As a side fact, did you know that the police evidence was collated by members of the West Midlands police force, who were later suspended and sacked when the West Mids Serious Crime Squad was disbanded as a result of the Birmingham Six scandal?

[Northern Git]

I haven't claimed to be there or expressed a view on who was responsible. And I haven;t tried to suggest that prejudice in South Yorkshire is conclusive evidence that the disaster was caused by Liverpool fans. It was obviously much more complex than that. Sorry if you feel that I should have just accepted your simplistic and unsupportable view.

Funnily enough I have experienced it and in a much more direct way than you will have done. Not just from Scouse fans either, Man Utd do it to. And it still happens today.

That's your right, I just question whether using the prejudices of the whole of South Yorkshire makes it especially credible.

So a view, widely held by local people, some of whom where working at Hillsborough that day, is prejudice? And where did I mention conclusive evidence?

And it nice to know that for my whole life you have been keeping a watchful eye over me to know that i have never experienced 'gateing' and I quote "in a much more direct way than you will have done" You must have been having a day off in September 1992 then, or been on holiday during the Everton v Watford cup final.

Just out of interest do you think that the Liverpool fans bear no responsibility whatsoever for the Hillsborough disaster?