Assists

[Snowball]

Inflated ? Surely he takes them for a reason (he's good at them).

NOT NECESSARILY. HE DOES OK, BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT HE'S A SENIOR PLAYER AND LIKES TO "HOG" THE KICKS

WE SAW THAT WITH THE LONG-HUNT SQUABBLE OVER THE PENALTY

Newer players would need a lot of "balls" to take the ball off Steve Hunt or say, Harpur
and say "I can do better."

It MAY be, that in training Steve Hunt does better at free kicks and penalties, and "therefore"
the manager says "Steve, you take the corners, free-kicks and pens" BUT WE DO NOT KNOW THAT.

But we KNOW (because Coppell has said so) that in the case of penalties, it's down
to "whoever fancies it." And we witnessed what happened when a "junior" player
wanted to take a penalty. He was bullied out of it by Hunt. We saw that clear as day.


I'm not knocking S Hunt, who I think is an important player, but if Kebe was taking all the corners, the free-kicks, the penalties
then Hunt would like a very unproductive winger

According to the match reports, which may not mention some moves, other than dead-balls
Steve Hunt is responsible for a TOTAL of (in open play) 9 crosses, 6 passes 3 runs = 18 "events" in 28 games
only a fraction more than 1 open-play event every two games. Kebe average 3 PER game, six times as many!



Are Kebe's stats inflated because he's a faster runner than Hunt so gets into attacking positions more quickly ?

He's faster, crosses more, shoots more, has more assists, has more defenders marking him BECAUSE HE IS A MORE SKILLFUL PLAYER
andd. as pointed out, creates four times as many incidents (73 v 18) in 24/28ths of the time.

That is 4.73 more Kebe moments than Hunt moments in open play.


Some of the pundits on this list have made the point that for a winger
S Hunt doesn't get in many crosses or telling passes in open play

They are absolutely right based on this year's stats.

[Snowball]

So all these 'stats' are only taken from match reports?

Whats a match report? An indivuals subjective representation of events as they've seen them.

I'm sure most of what you've pulled together is pretty accurate, but if it's still based on the official match report then the source is a little unreliable, IMO.

Oh, fer God's sake! There's a reporters' conspiracy now?

S Hunt is the local hero. If there's likely to be bias
in reporting it would be in his favour.


The point is, unsubstantiated, totally subjective opinions are divided.

The CLUB OFFICIAL STATISTICS show that Kebe has more shots in 4 less games
and is more accurate. Hunt's shots on target include 5 penalties. i can manage that.

Kebe's assists are official. They are all in open play.

It's a clear FACT that S Hunt's dead ball taking obscures the fact that he is a MUCH
less productive winger in open play. It's not even close. Kebe wins it 350% more productive

[Hoop Blah]

According to the match reports, which may not mention some moves, other than dead-balls
Steve Hunt is responsible for a TOTAL of (in open play) 9 crosses, 6 passes 3 runs = 18 "events" in 28 games
only a fraction more than 1 open-play event every two games. Kebe average 3 PER game, six times as many!

18 events in 28 games...but only taken from match reports.

You've just blown all that hard work of dragging up credible stats out of the water!!!

EDIT: I'm not even a Hunt fan, and I'm not pulling these apart to support his case over anyone elses but if your only using the match reports as the basis of these latest stats they're not worth the bandwith their posted on!

[Millsy]

Face it guys you're all pathetic trying to use facts to defend your lovechild Kebe.

We all know he's a lanky giraffe boy and is absolute rubbish. He's to blame for most of the attacks that go wrong and the goals we concede.

We all know that, yet you're looking at cold stats and facts to back up your thinking.

Football isn't about about facts.

If someone's a giraffe they're a giraffe no matter what you say.

..and you, sir, are also a complete tit.

whoosh?

[Ian Royal]

The stats also don't show the number of crosses put in unless I've missed something.


True, I didn't specifically count the crosses NOT leading to goals
but if you read the site reports Kebe gets a LOT more crosses for chances than Hunt

Kebe has also produced more crosses creating goals than Hunt (in four less games)


They do show he has more assists from open play, but again that isn't the whole picture, as a goal is made by more than the assist in most cases

Yes and I "gave" Hunty two, where goals were scored off his rebounded shots. That is he FAILS to score and someone knocks in the rebound.
Plus I pointed out he did a great dummy to set up Armstrong for a cross which led to a goal

You're still not following me. A goal is created from more than just the last pass, cross, rebounded shot, dummy etc. And you still can't provide anything for all the occasions when Kebe, or SHunt has cocked up an opportunity to put a ball in when they should have managed it.

You strike me as the classic example of someone who is really interested in football, but doesn't really understand it, thinking you can boil everything down to numbers. That just isn't the case. Especially when the source you get your numbers from is not even faintly complete.

The reason Hunt takes set pieces is because he is the best at them and has the best record with them. I find it extremely doubtful (given the type of dangerous ball you typically see Kebe put in) that he would have created half the goals SHunt has from set pieces, were he to have taken them all.

Both are good players, but SHunt is the more important to the side, because he offers more and is probably the more consistent of them. But then that's just my opinion.

[Hoop Blah]

You remind me of me...

[Ian Royal]

You remind me of me...

Nah, I'm a completely different type, even if you could get me to agree I don't really understand football. Which, of course, I dispute.

Since when do I post loads of highly dubious and incomplete statistics to prove my point?

[Snowball]

You're still not following me. A goal is created from more than just the last pass, cross, rebounded shot, dummy etc.

You think I don't know that? I played right wing, then CB after I lost a bit of knee (much easier) until I was 38. I have been watching soccer since I was 10 (I'm 61). I managed/coached a side for 5 years and we got two promotions. I captained my side at Uni for three years. I followed Leeds United in the old First when they were the best side in Britain (I was living close by), followed Newport County (for my sins) all my life and watched must be a hundreds and hundreds of games live in every division plus 3 divisions of non-league.


ALSO, IN CASE YOU MISSED IT, I POSTED TWENTY SEPARATE WRITE-UPS INVOLVING
MULTIPLE PLAYERS (AND BOTH KEBE AND HUNT IN THE MOVE)

ALSO I MENTIONED ONE SEMI-ASSIST OFFICIALLY ARMSTRONG'S AS IT WAS HIS CROSS
THAT MADE THE GOAL, WHERE IT WAS A HUNT DUMMY THAT SET ARMSTRONG FREE

And you still can't provide anything for all the occasions when Kebe, or SHunt has cocked up an opportunity to put a ball in when they should have managed it.

Of course I can't provide for EVERY mistake, but I DID seek out every mistake written up on the web-site.

In my stats I posted that each had had some negative comments. I didn't actually post all the text as it's probably about 5,000 words

Here are some of Steve's I even broke them down into 3 XXX bad, XX bad and X a little bit bad


Some Hunt Bloopers

Gives away a penalty but gets away with it
XXX Then Ipswich looked to have a great shout for a pen as Stephen Hunt was penalised. It looked a mile inside the box but somehow was given outside.

Atrocious free kick into the crowd
XXX Stephen Hunt had a good chance to get a free kick in in first half injury time, but it was overhit and summed up our display in the first 45

Hunt misses penalty
XXX Hunt misses penalty

Misses an easy chance
XX It should have been 2-1 inside a minute, Kalifa Cisse doing well to slip Stephen Hunt in, only for the Irishman to shin his effort narrowly past the post; only the 'keeper to beat.

You strike me as the classic example of someone who is really interested in football, but doesn't really understand it, thinking you can boil everything down to numbers. That just isn't the case.

Well you're wrong
After the pros, semi-pros and those with coaching badges, on this list, I know my stuff.
I've been watching footie for 50 years, have a season ticket for Reading by the dug-outs

I have been long-term mates with two pro non-league managers and once had a 15 minute sit-down with Bill Shankly

Especially when the source you get your numbers from is not even faintly complete.

It doesn't NEED to be complete. This is basic stuff. It's called "sampling"

My degree is in Psychology. If you take a sample (like the web-site descriptions)
it's likely to be fully representative. For it NOT to be representative you'd have to
show me that the writer was biased for or against certain players. if that is NOT
the case, then it doesn't matter if they only see a third of the incidents (as long
as they don't miss, for some bizarre reason, more of Hunt's good moments.

The reason Hunt takes set pieces is because he is the best at them and has the best record with them.

That statement has all the validity of "The reason Hunt takes set pieces is because he is Steve Coppell's love-child."

There is not a word of EVIDENCE in your statement. It's just OPINION.

If you had said, "Steve Coppell will have carefully assessed all the players in training and DISCOVERED that S Hunt was much better than all the rest.." that has SOME logic... but maybe the reason Hunty takes them is he likes to take them, is (now) a dominant personality, a senior player, and just grabs the ball.

It MAY BE that S Hunt really is the best dead-ball kicker but you present NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE other than to say "of course he is"

I think Noel has taken just one free-kick = one great goal.

How EXACTLY do you know that Rosenior, or Armstrong or Kebe can't take good free kicks?

Why did Doyle take the penalty at Nottingham?

The MANAGER has said he does NOT pick the penalty-taker, it's down to "who wants it".

I find it extremely doubtful (given the type of dangerous ball you typically see Kebe put in)
that he would have created half the goals SHunt has from set pieces, were he to have taken them all.

Pointless supposition. What logic is there to say this when we know from the CLUB's OWN STATISTICS
that Kebe has created more goals in open play than Hunt (and in less games)

Exactly what logic do you apply having NEVER seen Kebe take a free-kick or penalty, that he can't do it well?

[Snowball]

You remind me of me...

Nah, I'm a completely different type, even if you could get me to agree I don't really understand football. Which, of course, I dispute.

Since when do I post loads of highly dubious and incomplete statistics to prove my point?

Whereas you, Ian simply state something is true "cos you know it."

I go to the stats to see if the stats support or DON'T support my beliefs.

For example I had the idea that the clubs promoted in second
did better in the Prem

I checked. They don't. I said I got it wrong.


This list is 99% hot-air, "assertions" masquerading as facts


It's like at Arsenal, they all slag Denilson yet independent official stats rate him as the 15th-best player in the Prem

[Snowball]

According to the match reports, which may not mention some moves, other than dead-balls
Steve Hunt is responsible for a TOTAL of (in open play) 9 crosses, 6 passes 3 runs = 18 "events" in 28 games
only a fraction more than 1 open-play event every two games. Kebe average 3 PER game, six times as many!

18 events in 28 games...but only taken from match reports.

You've just blown all that hard work of dragging up credible stats out of the water!!!

EDIT: I'm not even a Hunt fan, and I'm not pulling these apart to support his case over anyone else's but if your only using the match reports as the basis of these latest stats they're not worth the bandwith their posted on!

ONLY?

I began by using :

1 Club official stats on shots on target
2 Club official stats on shots off target
3 Club official stats on assists
4 Club official stats on goals
5 Club official stats on goals other than penalties
6 Club official stats on assists separated into dead-ball and open play
7 Club official stats on starts and time on pitch

SOMEBODY ELSE raised the issue saying Kebe was crap at crosses.

The only way to get OBJECTIVE data on that is to either watch every match again or look at the match reports and COUNT the crosses and check their success rate.

When I showed that Kebe blew Hunt out of the water in open play, someone then said,
"But what about crosses, passes, shots that are not official assists or goals?"

So it's for THOSE that I went to the match reports

I actually said in my post that they would be incomplete.

So NOW, now the official shots on target puts Kebe ahead of Hunt
So NOW, now the official shots off target puts Kebe ahead of Hunt
So NOW, now the official shots accuracy puts Kebe ahead of Hunt
So NOW, now the official assist figures (for open play) puts Kebe ahead of Hunt

it's then that people start saying "forget official figures" what about the unofficial stuff.
the near-misses, the assists-to-assists etc, the times players make a run off the ball to
make space for others, or "start the move" which leads to a goal

The only way we can answer THOSE questions, in any objective way, is the match reports

As I said, they are incomplete, but they DO form a statistically meaningful sample

[Royal With Cheese]

Stats are complete bollocks.

I remember reading that statistically you are more likely to win a game if your team plays in red than in any other colour in the 1st div/prem. No shit sherlock as Man Utd and Liverpool both play in red at home.

[Millsy]

Stats are complete bollocks.

I remember reading that statistically you are more likely to win a game if your team plays in red than in any other colour in the 1st div/prem. No shit sherlock as Man Utd and Liverpool both play in red at home.

Erm.... so it's not complete bollox then is it?

[Snowball]

It's a correct statistic (the red shirt), a simple fact.

The FALLACY is thinking, that "therefore" if you
change a club's strip to red, it will win more.


It's like "It's a 10,000-1 that a bomb will be on your plane, so TAKE a bomb
on the plane and the odds are now 100 MILLION to one (two bombs)"

WRONG, the original odds haven't altered. The events are not co-dependent.



Betting, Insurance, pensions, all work on stats, and stats WORK
Betting, Insurance, pensions, all work on stats, and stats WORK
Betting, Insurance, pensions, all work on stats, and stats WORK

There, I've said it three times, and therefore, by the laws of HNA this is now absolute fact.

[Southbank Old Boy]

Betting, Insurance, pensions, all work on stats, and stats WORK
Betting, Insurance, pensions, all work on stats, and stats WORK
Betting, Insurance, pensions, all work on stats, and stats WORK

But football doesnt

[Snowball]

does does does (3 times so it's true)