Where has £3.95 million gone?

[brendywendy]

I doubt any RFC fans doubts that there are much worse Chairman around. But you really do have a habit of missing the point. Why not read the thread.

And you really do have a lack of a sense of humour.......

However, how can I miss the point when the original comments were written using a combination of incomplete and made up numbers?

Please enlighten me oh wise one. Which numbers are incomplete and which did I make up.

for starters you only used transfers fees in/out and while totally failing to take into account any of the other outgoings of the club, and maintained that this meant we have 3.95 million sloshing around to spend, and other statements were made regarding the 20 million profit we have made etc.

[Royal Monk]

Get real guys , he made a fortune out of green park and his profile has gone off the scale compared to when he started which also helped him in his other ventures.
And i dont begrudge him at all but some of you guys need to wake up and smell the coffee

How old are you? I'm guessing about 12. So why aren't you at school?

Just LOL at that

[brendywendy]

that high profile has to be worth, what.....10-15p?


whats green park got to do with owt?
and how much exactly did he make?

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

Get real guys , he made a fortune out of green park and his profile has gone off the scale compared to when he started which also helped him in his other ventures.
And i dont begrudge him at all but some of you guys need to wake up and smell the coffee

How exactly? He never owned Green Park to start with. If you mean the retail park below the stadium, this was sold freehold before the units were built in order to form the majority of the finance required for the new stadium. The rest was a combination of "soft" loans and his personal guarantees.

There is no ongoing income stream from the retail park.

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

that high profile has to be worth, what.....10-15p?

Rather than the profile itself Brendy, I'd imagine the PR that he has received as being RFC chariman would have cost him millions if he had chosen the Max Clifford-style of approach. All pretty moot now though as I imagine its primary purpose was to get the knighthood. Job done.

[brendywendy]

Royal Monk wrote:
Get real guys , he made a fortune out of green park and his profile has gone off the scale compared to when he started which also helped him in his other ventures.
And i dont begrudge him at all but some of you guys need to wake up and smell the coffee

How exactly? He never owned Green Park to start with. If you mean the retail park below the stadium, this was sold freehold before the units were built in order to form the majority of the finance required for the new stadium. The rest was a combination of "soft" loans and his personal guarantees.

There is no ongoing income stream from the retail park.

a perfect demonstration why you should never ever listen to the "where has all the money gone" merchants

[Wycombe Royal]

The lack of knowledge of some people is quite staggering, and even more laughable is that they are using it as there basis for a bit of Madejski bashing......

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

The lack of knowledge of some people is quite staggering, and even more laughable is that they are using it as there basis for a bit of Madejski bashing......

I think you're being a bit kind there WR. It's less a lack a knowledge, rather complete fantasy and fabricated "my mate told me so it must be true" so-called facts!

The one thing I would say is that the club is occasionally guilty send out conflicting/mixed signals (not talking about the accounts here) and this is an area in which they could be smarter, but in the grand scheme of things we should still be able to work things out for ourselves.

[andrew1957]

for starters you only used transfers fees in/out and while totally failing to take into account any of the other outgoings of the club, and maintained that this meant we have 3.95 million sloshing around to spend, and other statements were made regarding the 20 million profit we have made etc.

The club said we had a shortfall of £4M "after" taking all income and expenditure into account. That is how a business projects figures. I don't need to do that calculation again because the club has already done so. Are you suggesting the club lied and the shortfall was actually much larger than £4M?
if so how come they could afford a new fridge at the training ground and a flight to Boro out of the surplus made on the Gylfi sale (as we were told on the club site).

So from the club's own figures we "DO" have £3.95M sloshing about somewhere.

As for profit on player trading since the end of the 2005/6 season - I will post the fill list in a minute. Yes some figures might be a bit wrong but I have even allowed deductions for players ending their careers like Murty - so i think £20M is conservative.

[andrew1957]

Surplus on transfer dealing profits and losses since 1st May 2006 and 31st May 2011.

May 2007 - Steve Sidwell – loss of £150,000 (bought £150K – Bosman - free)
June 2007 - Greg Halford – profit of £250,000 (bought £2.25M – sold £2.5M)
Aug 2007 – Seol - Ki-Hyeon – no loss/profit (bought and sold for £1M)
Jan 2008 – Simon Cox – profit of £720,000 (developed Academy – sold for £200K – plus we received a £520K sell on fee when he joined West Brom in July 09)
May 2008 – Graham Stack – loss of £100,000 (bought £100K – released free)
May 2008 – John Halls – loss of £250,000 (bought for £250K – released free)
May 2008 – Aaron Brown – loss of £50,000 (bought £50K – released free)
July 2008 – David Kitson – profit £4,800,000 (bought £350K – sold £5.5M less release from sell on fee clause costing £350,000)
Aug 2008 – Nicky Shorey – profit £2,950,000 (bought £25K – sold £3.5M less sell on fee of £525,000)
Aug 2008 – Ibrahima Sonko – profit £2,000,000 (signed free – sold £2M)
January 2009 – Emerse Fae – no loss/profit (bought and sold for approx £2,500,000)
February 2009 – Bobby Convey – loss £850,000 (signed £850K – released free)
May 2009 – Alan Bennett – loss £300,000 (signed £300K – released free)
May 2009 – Graeme Murty – loss £825,000 (signed £825K – released free)
May 2009 – Leroy Lita – loss £1,000,000 (signed £1M – Bosman free)
May 2009 – Michael Duberry – loss £800.000 (signed £800K – released free)
May 2009 – Scott Golbourne – loss £250,000 (signed £250K – released free)
May 2009 – Sam Sodje – loss £350,000 (signed £350K – released free)
June 2009 – Kevin Doyle – profit £6,222,000 (bought for £78K initial, plus £200K to buy out 10% sell on clause – sold £6,500,000).
August 2009 – Stephen Hunt – profit £3,000,000 (signed free – sold for £3M)
August 2009 – Andre Bikey – profit £1,600,000 (signed £1.2M – sold £2.8M)
January 2010 – James Harper – loss £400,000 (signed £400K – released free)
May 2010 – Liam Rosenior – loss £1,000,000 (signed £1M swap deal – released free).
May 2010 – Radoslav Vasilev – loss £250,000 (signed £250K – released free)
June 2010 – Marek Matejovsky – loss £770,000 (signed £1.42M – sold £650K)
July 2010 – Khalifa Cisse – loss £175,000 (signed £675K – sold £500K)
July 2010 – James Henry – profit £200,000 (developed by Academy – sold for £200K)
August 2010 - Grzegorz Rasiak – loss £300,000 (signed £300K – released free)
August 2010 – Gylfi Sigurdsson – profit £6,300,000 (developed Academy – sold for £7M - less a 10% (700K) sell on fee to his old club in Iceland)
All other leaving players joined for free and left for free or were developed by Academy and also left for free – so no loss or profit achieved on transferring away.
Overall profit/loss on leaving players since 1st May 2006 – profit £20,222,000

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

for starters you only used transfers fees in/out and while totally failing to take into account any of the other outgoings of the club, and maintained that this meant we have 3.95 million sloshing around to spend, and other statements were made regarding the 20 million profit we have made etc.

The club said we had a shortfall of £4M "after" taking all income and expenditure into account. That is how a business projects figures. I don't need to do that calculation again because the club has already done so. Are you suggesting the club lied and the shortfall was actually much larger than £4M?
if so how come they could afford a new fridge at the training ground and a flight to Boro out of the surplus made on the Gylfi sale (as we were told on the club site).

So from the club's own figures we "DO" have £3.95M sloshing about somewhere.

As for profit on player trading since the end of the 2005/6 season - I will post the fill list in a minute. Yes some figures might be a bit wrong but I have even allowed deductions for players ending their careers like Murty - so i think £20M is conservative.

I think we may have a fair bit more than £3.95m left Andrew when you take wages into account. But although the £4m shortfall this year was plugged, there will still be another hole next year, albeit a lot smaller. I think JM is being sensible in keeping as much back as possible to cover this, especially if that shortfall widens as a result of falling attendances and other reductions in income (such as box holders for example).

[Wycombe Royal]

I'm sorry, but what has all that got to do with anything? It doesn't help your point one bit.

It is not a secret that the club has used transfer proceeds to fund the club, that is how any sensibly run club which has normal operating expeditures higher than its normal operating income works.

You do not take into account the huge retained losses that have been held on the ballance for a number of years which they have been trying to reduce. You have no idea what the wage bill is now or what the affect of signing on fees, etc, have been. You have no idea what the budgets for the club are for next season, the season after that, etc.

You are just looking at a narrow amount of innacurate information at a particular point in time and arenot looking at the bigger picture.

[andrew1957]

for starters you only used transfers fees in/out and while totally failing to take into account any of the other outgoings of the club, and maintained that this meant we have 3.95 million sloshing around to spend, and other statements were made regarding the 20 million profit we have made etc.

The club said we had a shortfall of £4M "after" taking all income and expenditure into account. That is how a business projects figures. I don't need to do that calculation again because the club has already done so. Are you suggesting the club lied and the shortfall was actually much larger than £4M?
if so how come they could afford a new fridge at the training ground and a flight to Boro out of the surplus made on the Gylfi sale (as we were told on the club site).

So from the club's own figures we "DO" have £3.95M sloshing about somewhere.

As for profit on player trading since the end of the 2005/6 season - I will post the fill list in a minute. Yes some figures might be a bit wrong but I have even allowed deductions for players ending their careers like Murty - so i think £20M is conservative.

I think we may have a fair bit more than £3.95m left Andrew when you take wages into account. But although the £4m shortfall this year was plugged, there will still be another hole next year, albeit a lot smaller. I think JM is being sensible in keeping as much back as possible to cover this, especially if that shortfall widens as a result of falling attendances and other reductions in income (such as box holders for example).

I don't disagree but the purchase of Austin will excite fans to come along. There is nothing like a new striker to get bums on seats. All I am saying is that there is a case here to speculate to accumulate because if we do not go up this year a good proportion of the team will want to leave anyway (Fed has effectively already said he is off and Kebe reputedly has said if not PL then he is back to France) so any shortfall for next year will be well covered.

I am also only suggesting investing £2M max back into the team which leaves another £2M in the coffers.

[Isaac Hunt]

Surplus on transfer dealing profits and losses since 1st May 2006 and 31st May 2011.

May 2007 - Steve Sidwell – loss of £150,000 (bought £150K – Bosman - free)
June 2007 - Greg Halford – profit of £250,000 (bought £2.25M – sold £2.5M)
Aug 2007 – Seol - Ki-Hyeon – no loss/profit (bought and sold for £1M)
Jan 2008 – Simon Cox – profit of £720,000 (developed Academy – sold for £200K – plus we received a £520K sell on fee when he joined West Brom in July 09)
May 2008 – Graham Stack – loss of £100,000 (bought £100K – released free)
May 2008 – John Halls – loss of £250,000 (bought for £250K – released free)
May 2008 – Aaron Brown – loss of £50,000 (bought £50K – released free)
July 2008 – David Kitson – profit £4,800,000 (bought £350K – sold £5.5M less release from sell on fee clause costing £350,000)
Aug 2008 – Nicky Shorey – profit £2,950,000 (bought £25K – sold £3.5M less sell on fee of £525,000)
Aug 2008 – Ibrahima Sonko – profit £2,000,000 (signed free – sold £2M)
January 2009 – Emerse Fae – no loss/profit (bought and sold for approx £2,500,000)
February 2009 – Bobby Convey – loss £850,000 (signed £850K – released free)
May 2009 – Alan Bennett – loss £300,000 (signed £300K – released free)
May 2009 – Graeme Murty – loss £825,000 (signed £825K – released free)
May 2009 – Leroy Lita – loss £1,000,000 (signed £1M – Bosman free)
May 2009 – Michael Duberry – loss £800.000 (signed £800K – released free)
May 2009 – Scott Golbourne – loss £250,000 (signed £250K – released free)
May 2009 – Sam Sodje – loss £350,000 (signed £350K – released free)
June 2009 – Kevin Doyle – profit £6,222,000 (bought for £78K initial, plus £200K to buy out 10% sell on clause – sold £6,500,000).
August 2009 – Stephen Hunt – profit £3,000,000 (signed free – sold for £3M)
August 2009 – Andre Bikey – profit £1,600,000 (signed £1.2M – sold £2.8M)
January 2010 – James Harper – loss £400,000 (signed £400K – released free)
May 2010 – Liam Rosenior – loss £1,000,000 (signed £1M swap deal – released free).
May 2010 – Radoslav Vasilev – loss £250,000 (signed £250K – released free)
June 2010 – Marek Matejovsky – loss £770,000 (signed £1.42M – sold £650K)
July 2010 – Khalifa Cisse – loss £175,000 (signed £675K – sold £500K)
July 2010 – James Henry – profit £200,000 (developed by Academy – sold for £200K)
August 2010 - Grzegorz Rasiak – loss £300,000 (signed £300K – released free)
August 2010 – Gylfi Sigurdsson – profit £6,300,000 (developed Academy – sold for £7M - less a 10% (700K) sell on fee to his old club in Iceland)
All other leaving players joined for free and left for free or were developed by Academy and also left for free – so no loss or profit achieved on transferring away.
Overall profit/loss on leaving players since 1st May 2006 – profit £20,222,000

Please can you now add in the turnover and full operating costs of RFC from May 2007 too. Thanks.

[Wycombe Royal]

I am also only suggesting investing £2M max back into the team which leaves another £2M in the coffers.

Based on your totally fabricated assumption that we have a £4m "cash surplus".

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

Surplus on transfer dealing profits and losses since 1st May 2006 and 31st May 2011.

May 2007 - Steve Sidwell – loss of £150,000 (bought £150K – Bosman - free)
June 2007 - Greg Halford – profit of £250,000 (bought £2.25M – sold £2.5M)
Aug 2007 – Seol - Ki-Hyeon – no loss/profit (bought and sold for £1M)
Jan 2008 – Simon Cox – profit of £720,000 (developed Academy – sold for £200K – plus we received a £520K sell on fee when he joined West Brom in July 09)
May 2008 – Graham Stack – loss of £100,000 (bought £100K – released free)
May 2008 – John Halls – loss of £250,000 (bought for £250K – released free)
May 2008 – Aaron Brown – loss of £50,000 (bought £50K – released free)
July 2008 – David Kitson – profit £4,800,000 (bought £350K – sold £5.5M less release from sell on fee clause costing £350,000)
Aug 2008 – Nicky Shorey – profit £2,950,000 (bought £25K – sold £3.5M less sell on fee of £525,000)
Aug 2008 – Ibrahima Sonko – profit £2,000,000 (signed free – sold £2M)
January 2009 – Emerse Fae – no loss/profit (bought and sold for approx £2,500,000)
February 2009 – Bobby Convey – loss £850,000 (signed £850K – released free)
May 2009 – Alan Bennett – loss £300,000 (signed £300K – released free)
May 2009 – Graeme Murty – loss £825,000 (signed £825K – released free)
May 2009 – Leroy Lita – loss £1,000,000 (signed £1M – Bosman free)
May 2009 – Michael Duberry – loss £800.000 (signed £800K – released free)
May 2009 – Scott Golbourne – loss £250,000 (signed £250K – released free)
May 2009 – Sam Sodje – loss £350,000 (signed £350K – released free)
June 2009 – Kevin Doyle – profit £6,222,000 (bought for £78K initial, plus £200K to buy out 10% sell on clause – sold £6,500,000).
August 2009 – Stephen Hunt – profit £3,000,000 (signed free – sold for £3M)
August 2009 – Andre Bikey – profit £1,600,000 (signed £1.2M – sold £2.8M)
January 2010 – James Harper – loss £400,000 (signed £400K – released free)
May 2010 – Liam Rosenior – loss £1,000,000 (signed £1M swap deal – released free).
May 2010 – Radoslav Vasilev – loss £250,000 (signed £250K – released free)
June 2010 – Marek Matejovsky – loss £770,000 (signed £1.42M – sold £650K)
July 2010 – Khalifa Cisse – loss £175,000 (signed £675K – sold £500K)
July 2010 – James Henry – profit £200,000 (developed by Academy – sold for £200K)
August 2010 - Grzegorz Rasiak – loss £300,000 (signed £300K – released free)
August 2010 – Gylfi Sigurdsson – profit £6,300,000 (developed Academy – sold for £7M - less a 10% (700K) sell on fee to his old club in Iceland)
All other leaving players joined for free and left for free or were developed by Academy and also left for free – so no loss or profit achieved on transferring away.
Overall profit/loss on leaving players since 1st May 2006 – profit £20,222,000

I know what you're trying to say, but this is just too selective.

You include Graeme Murty in the list, so in that case should include all the other players bought at the same time/after him as well.

I think the case is that you can't separate the transfers from the published accounts, which allows for all the other costs in running the football club, including the not insignifcant matter of staff wages!!!

If you want to make a case for seeing how we have plugged the £4m shortfall, that's another matter and you'd have to start before the season and not go back any further than that.

[andrew1957]

I am also only suggesting investing £2M max back into the team which leaves another £2M in the coffers.

Based on your totally fabricated assumption that we have a £4m "cash surplus".

Are you saying the club lied about the incoming transfer fees then. It was clearly stated on the OS that the Gylfi sale was larger than the Doyle sale (which was 6.5M) and the other fees were well documented.

You are obviously up the Chairman's arse so I realise that I am wasting my time.

[Wycombe Royal]

I am also only suggesting investing £2M max back into the team which leaves another £2M in the coffers.

Based on your totally fabricated assumption that we have a £4m "cash surplus".

Are you saying the club lied about the incoming transfer fees then. It was clearly stated on the OS that the Gylfi sale was larger than the Doyle sale (which was 6.5M) and the other fees were well documented.

You are obviously up the Chairman's arse so I realise that I am wasting my time.

I'm not saying the club have lied about anything. I'm saying you are using fabricated and incomplete information. You take into account no other costs or incomes involved with running a football club. You cannot just say we have recieved this much and spent this much therefore we have this much left over.

It is primary school accounting.

[andrew1957]

Surplus on transfer dealing profits and losses since 1st May 2006 and 31st May 2011.

May 2007 - Steve Sidwell – loss of £150,000 (bought £150K – Bosman - free)
June 2007 - Greg Halford – profit of £250,000 (bought £2.25M – sold £2.5M)
Aug 2007 – Seol - Ki-Hyeon – no loss/profit (bought and sold for £1M)
Jan 2008 – Simon Cox – profit of £720,000 (developed Academy – sold for £200K – plus we received a £520K sell on fee when he joined West Brom in July 09)
May 2008 – Graham Stack – loss of £100,000 (bought £100K – released free)
May 2008 – John Halls – loss of £250,000 (bought for £250K – released free)
May 2008 – Aaron Brown – loss of £50,000 (bought £50K – released free)
July 2008 – David Kitson – profit £4,800,000 (bought £350K – sold £5.5M less release from sell on fee clause costing £350,000)
Aug 2008 – Nicky Shorey – profit £2,950,000 (bought £25K – sold £3.5M less sell on fee of £525,000)
Aug 2008 – Ibrahima Sonko – profit £2,000,000 (signed free – sold £2M)
January 2009 – Emerse Fae – no loss/profit (bought and sold for approx £2,500,000)
February 2009 – Bobby Convey – loss £850,000 (signed £850K – released free)
May 2009 – Alan Bennett – loss £300,000 (signed £300K – released free)
May 2009 – Graeme Murty – loss £825,000 (signed £825K – released free)
May 2009 – Leroy Lita – loss £1,000,000 (signed £1M – Bosman free)
May 2009 – Michael Duberry – loss £800.000 (signed £800K – released free)
May 2009 – Scott Golbourne – loss £250,000 (signed £250K – released free)
May 2009 – Sam Sodje – loss £350,000 (signed £350K – released free)
June 2009 – Kevin Doyle – profit £6,222,000 (bought for £78K initial, plus £200K to buy out 10% sell on clause – sold £6,500,000).
August 2009 – Stephen Hunt – profit £3,000,000 (signed free – sold for £3M)
August 2009 – Andre Bikey – profit £1,600,000 (signed £1.2M – sold £2.8M)
January 2010 – James Harper – loss £400,000 (signed £400K – released free)
May 2010 – Liam Rosenior – loss £1,000,000 (signed £1M swap deal – released free).
May 2010 – Radoslav Vasilev – loss £250,000 (signed £250K – released free)
June 2010 – Marek Matejovsky – loss £770,000 (signed £1.42M – sold £650K)
July 2010 – Khalifa Cisse – loss £175,000 (signed £675K – sold £500K)
July 2010 – James Henry – profit £200,000 (developed by Academy – sold for £200K)
August 2010 - Grzegorz Rasiak – loss £300,000 (signed £300K – released free)
August 2010 – Gylfi Sigurdsson – profit £6,300,000 (developed Academy – sold for £7M - less a 10% (700K) sell on fee to his old club in Iceland)
All other leaving players joined for free and left for free or were developed by Academy and also left for free – so no loss or profit achieved on transferring away.
Overall profit/loss on leaving players since 1st May 2006 – profit £20,222,000

I know what you're trying to say, but this is just too selective.

You include Graeme Murty in the list, so in that case should include all the other players bought at the same time/after him as well.

I think the case is that you can't separate the transfers from the published accounts, which allows for all the other costs in running the football club, including the not insignifcant matter of staff wages!!!

If you want to make a case for seeing how we have plugged the £4m shortfall, that's another matter and you'd have to start before the season and not go back any further than that.

Just for the record I have taken the cost of other players into account as the cost of the 2005-6 squad and the cost of the current squad are all but identical - both around the £5M mark. The two, therefore fully offset themselves.

[Isaac Hunt]

Just for the record I have taken the cost of other players into account as the cost of the 2005-6 squad and the cost of the current squad are all but identical - both around the £5M mark. The two, therefore fully offset themselves.

Andrew, if you need a little longer to answer my question, that's fine.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Best,
Isaac x